Hello ***,
I was confused myself... Read especially Acts 2:21 more carefully. Both Acts and Joel 2:32 says ' the name of Jehovah'. I have to check the grammar of 'of' in original language, but it seems not 'the name' is 'Jehovah' and it's more likely that means 'Jehovah's name'
If his name is Jehovah, these passages ought to be written as 'Jehovah, the name of God'.
It seems Jehovah simply means God in these passages. I can read these passages as 'the name of God is unknown but call him in our mind'.
Probably more in passages at Joel, Jehovah is used like a proper noun. Basically Jehovah is the name of God in Hebrew scriptures. I can't believe Jesus used the term Jehovah in early Christianity. Jesus might not have used the term Jehovah because we can imagine that he wanted to establish a different religion from Judaism in his teachings.
Please examine more on this. Because we've been discussed it many times.
Mer
The text does not say "Jehovah" at all; it says: "And it shall happen [literally 'be'] that everyone who calls the LORD'S name shall be saved." The Greek word for 'lord' is kyrios; your "of" is expressed by a genetive in Greek (kyriou). No text varieties are given in my edition for this verse.
ReplyDeleteYour translation is - er, interpreting. 'Kyrios' often refers to Jesus. It's Peter talking here, not Jesus. When he refers to God, he says "theos", not Jehovah.
I can't help you much with Joel, I don't have a Hebrew text, and I don't think I remember much of that language anyway.
ReplyDeleteThe Hebrew equivalent of 'kyrios' is adonai; we have for example: shemah Israel Adonai Elohim = hear, Israel, the lord [your] God. Elohim is used instead of Jehovah in many places - they may originally have been separate gods, or El/Elohim is the word that means "god", not a name.
In Septuaginta, the Greek translation of what we call the old Testament, God's name is written as JHVH, the so-called tetragrammaton. As far as I remember, it's not found one single time in the new Testament. There we have either theos or kyrios.
ReplyDeleteMy translation of Joel says "the Lord". There is no verse 32, by the way, I assume you mean 22 or perhaps 26 where it says: "You shall eat and be sated and praise the lord your God's name ---".
ReplyDeleteNew American Standard Bible (©1995)
ReplyDelete"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
Or other version, see http://bible.cc/joel/2-32.htm
Capital letter LORD means YHVH.
Mer - I translated the verse myself from a Greek "scientific" edition, i.e. it takes a large number of manuscripts into account. It's not published by any church or religious organization. And no matter what you think LORD represents, this text has "kyrios". Not YHVH.
ReplyDeleteAs you said yourself: Jesus wouldn't have used the name Jehovah. For one thing, it was forbidden to pronounce it although allowed to write the tetragrammaton. They said adonai (probably), in Greek kyrios.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I wanted to know though I can't on my own.
ReplyDeleteYour reply includes all what I wanted to confirm. Thanks!!!
Correct.
ReplyDeleteIn many versions of Old Testament, capital letter LORD is used in place of YHWH. As you say, no tetragrammaton appears in Greek scriptures, therefore lord instead of LORD is used in New Testament, generally.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how accurate your knowledge is! Not sure but I believe Elohim means simply One God, on the other hands YHWH is used as proper noun, literally means God makes. They say Elohim was Israel origin and YHWH Juda.
ReplyDeleteI checked the Adonai Elohim quoted above. It also says "the LORD our God". So LORD represents the tetragrammaton but not ONLY the tetragrammaton.
ReplyDeleteMaybe there are translations that are consequent - mine isn't.
Hm. Elohim is a plural form, actually - El is the singular, and we don't find that except as ending in personal names, e.g. Mika-el. It may simply mean "god", or it may be the name of a tribal god other than Jahveh. We/they don't know.
ReplyDeleteThe original form is Jahveh, and that is with certainty a proper name - like Apollon or Thor. They changed the vowels in it because it became too holy to pronounce or write in its original form. Thus they got Jehovah which resembles the present causative participle of the verb "to be"; it means "the one who makes things be" (in translations you find "I AM"). That etymology is found I forget where, I think in Exodus, and it is a completely false one.
The above has been taught me by University professors who had studied Hebrew for 20 years. I assume it's accurate.
Then Kyrios might become Christ by adding 't' after crucification.
ReplyDeleteNO. Christos means "the anointed one" and is a translation of Hebrew Messiah. It begins with the Greek letter X that the Romans transcribed as Ch. Kyrios begins with a K, and those two consonants didn't sound alike. You can't mix words like that.
ReplyDeleteAnd Christos is used before the crucification. Matthew 16:17: "You are Christ, the son of the living god". It's Peter speaking to Jesus.
ReplyDeleteI have been taught all my life ( 61 yrs. ) that The heavenly Father ( Christ's father ) name is Elohim . Jesus is HIS son and was called Jehovah . Now if this is wrong ,then I am confused..The New Testament also says by Jeasus " I am the way and the light ,It is so simple a little child can understand ME ,come follow me and I will save you ." I do believe we have to have faith . If we LOVE HIM ,guess what HE will know us . What's in a name ? I have several but am only one. Thanks ,just had to add to this . The Spirit lead my words.
ReplyDeleteGina - that Jesus is identical with the Old Testament's Jehovah is an interpretation that several churches support. It's not what people with a "scientific" approach to the Bible thinks - but they can't definitively prove it wrong.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry and don't doubt what you have been taught. You could easily be right and all the scientists wrong.
I too think it's about loving Him and loving each other. About trying to do what he taught.
It just occurred to me: we do know what Jesus called God in his own language (Aramaeic). "Eli, Eli, lema sabaktani" = "God, God, why have you deserted me".
ReplyDeleteOk, let's clarify the matter. You told me kyrios in Greek means adonai in Hebrew and lord in English. You taught me kyrios usually refers to Jesus in New Testament.
ReplyDeleteBut here you say Jesus call his God kyrios.
So you think kyrios means both Jehovah and Jesus depending on the context.
Is that correct?
I was about to miss the point.
ReplyDeleteI understand theos means god, but kyrios, adonai, lord mean more like a saviour, not god himself.
I understand there are many ways for it.
ReplyDeleteWhen I say "they said adonai", I mean the Jews in general. I think that Jesus in our texts usually refers to God as theos, but Jesus did not speak Greek. I - or anybody, I suppose - do not KNOW what Jesus called God except in the quote above where he's speaking directly to God.
ReplyDeleteThe Greek kyrios means "lord", in a purely secular sense as well. In fact it's used in modern Greek like the English-speaking use "sir" (vocative: kyrie). So the disciples of Jesus called him kyrios because he was one they obeyed. He did not refer to himself that way, of course. His only "boss" was God Himself.
The word for saviour is soter.
Yes. In Septuaginta, the Hebrew adonai which refers to God will be translated as kyrios. To the first Christians, Jesus was their lord - kyrios - while God is God (theos) or Father (pater).
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that kyrios is never used for God the Father in the New Testament. I really don't want to read it all through right now - hope you understand. :-)
I think this is much more consistent than other explanations.
ReplyDeleteYou see Elohim made the world first as Genesis says. Sometime later the name of God was replaced in YHWH, that is Jehovah. He might have been called Jehovah before the first advent on the earth around AD. After ascension he was certain to return to Heaven. His earthly name was Jesus, his heavenly name is of course 'Jehovah'.
If Jesus was really a son of God, he must have been God after he was grown up. Now we realised a son of God is also God in adult.
Remember that the New Testament is written in a very ordinary daily-life Greek. It is not yet theology or philosophy. It is, as Gina said, most often so simple that a child can understand it.
ReplyDeleteIt is - IF you believe that Jesus was the son of God. Then the theory is that he was the one who interacted actively with the Jews while God the Father (Elohim) is rather distant. The Mormons, for instance, believe this.
ReplyDeleteJehovah's Witnesses say that Jehovah is identical with Elohim, Elohim meaning "God" while Jehovah is his proper name. Jesus, they say, is identical with the Old Testament's Mikael.
The Danish state church, which is Lutheran, identifies Jahveh or Jehovah with Elohim (= God) and teaches that Jesus isn't mentioned in the Old Testament except in some prophecies in which he's most often referred to as Messiah.
What I gave you is the explanation of secular Bible researchers - or their theory.
Till recently I found Jesus spoke Aramaic somewhere in the net I had thought he must have spoken Koine or simplified common Greek for New Testament was written in Koine.
ReplyDeleteJesus didn't call his God in his name if he simply used Eli for his God.
Jesus might have used the term Adonai as well as Father to call his God since what is important is their relation to God. If someone thinks God is his lord or father, they will call their God so. That does not mean their God is really their lord or father. They called so because of their faith.
Father means both our biological father and God in heaven. In the same manner kyrios, adonai, lord all mean in many ways including their master, teacher, God, etc.
I reflect I was too particular about the use of word.
What is important in use of words was how we feel in our mind.
I should have written that ' but Kyrios had never become Christ by simply adding the cross or 't' after crucification.' :-)
ReplyDeleteAs if Elohim was made up with many different Gods. This is the clue there used to be many Gods in prehistorical era. The origin of the word cannot hide its history even though superficially the word elohim means one God.
ReplyDeleteMm. There's a theory that Jahveh/Jehovah was believed to have a wife until quite late - perhaps until the 6th century BC when the Torah was more or less rewritten.
ReplyDeleteI forgot to mention that I am a Mormon . And for the most part I really love what I have been taught in the Temple. It can very well be true ,on the other hand they teach to keep learning and to have a personal relationship with Heavenly Father and that Jesus Christ is our brother . I am enjoying reading all this cause I am going to pull out all my study material.And even tho' I really would like to know whom I pray to , a name is still just a name You all are awesome .
ReplyDeleteI had a hunch you were - I recognized the way of thinking.
ReplyDeleteI used to go to the LDS church very often, and I found much truth, an amazing amount of genuine love and many great friends there.
Yes, a name is just a name. Otherwise, we know perfectly well to whom and in whose name we pray, don't we?